Interviews > Barbara Bodine

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Who was your best diplomatic coach and what did they teach you? 

We didn’t use the word mentor when I joined. In retrospect, the common thread amongst the people who guided me along the way was that they understood that a large part of their job was to help me, a junior officer, learn how to be a diplomat, a professional, and a skilled bureaucrat. As an example, when I was working on Yemen and Saudi Arabia, the hours my boss took just talking about the deep history of the Gulf Arabs and the US-Gulf relations was invaluable.  He and others took time to help me to write well and effectively. They all devoted an enormous amount of time working with a junior officer to develop and practice the skills necessary to succeed. They were patient and most assuredly not shy in telling me when I screwed up, what I did wrong, and then how to do it right. Extremely important throughout this apprenticeship, I was never made to feel lesser because of my age or my gender.

Could you share a little bit about any regrets from your career?

I don’t have any big ones, but the one thing that is a bit of a regret is that I didn’t always spend as much time as I should have really just enjoying where I was. I tend to be very focused, borderline workaholic, and I sometimes didn’t sit back and enjoy the moment. Even with the great policy victories, I didn’t stop and enjoy the moment as often as I should have. Some of my fondest memories of the foreign service were the completely off the wall, “good God in heaven what am I doing here” kinds of moments. I wish I had savored them more. Enjoy it, internalize it. These are the moments you will remember the most. Doing the high policy, managing crises, all of those, yes. But every once in a while you have to just stop and realize where you are, what you’re doing and be in awe.

What advice would you give someone who is considering joining the Foreign Service? What skills are most important to develop?

First, if you are considering joining the Foreign Service, I would strongly encourage you. I certainly had days and times where I wished I was somewhere else. But even in the worst moments, I never wanted to be doing anything else. It was much more than I imagined it could be.  It not only did not disappoint me, it was a wondrous adventure, an adventure with purpose, with meaning, but still an adventure.

To succeed, you need to be able to think strategically, be able to solve little problems and big problems. You need to be able to make a decision and live with it. You absolutely must know how to write, write quickly and write precisely. If you can think but not write you might as well stay home. If you can write and not think, also stay home. You need to know how to work with people. If there is somebody reading this who is an introvert and thinks I could not possibly join the Foreign Service, I scored so high on the Myers-Briggs introvert scale it’s scary. But you can still learn and be effective in working with people.  You may even enjoy it.

One of the best lines I ever heard is, ‘you get paid as much to listen as you do to talk.’ Learn how to listen, how to really listen to what people are talking about, what they’re not saying. Listen to people with purpose. If you are just listening, you are a social worker. We are not social workers. We advance U.S. interests at all times, so there is a purpose to what we are doing, who we meet with, what we hear from them, not just what talking points we deliver.    

What you need to develop boils down to emotional intelligence, intellectual skills and writing skills. You need to have the psychological makeup that you can deal with ambiguity, you can deal with frustration. You also have to have intellectual courage and moral courage. Never lose sight of your principles, your values—do well, do good and do right.

Did you ever dissent, either officially, through the regular channels, or just with your boss? In the Foreign Service, we talk about this a lot. How should we do it, should we do it and how?

When I joined the Foreign Service, the Vietnam war was going on and as a student, I was out in the streets protesting along with everybody else. I went straight from the protests to the Foreign Service. When I was at my first post, there was a peaceful demonstration in front of my consulate on the Vietnam War, so I took a day of annual leave and joined the protests. Not surprisingly, I ended up in the Consul General’s office the next morning. I was 22 years old, and I took a day of annual leave so I figured I was fine. I remember very clearly what the Consul General said to me. He said that while people in this consulate may agree with me, I am now on the inside and I have the privilege and obligation to shape policy. I had an obligation to dissent, and I had the forum, if used wisely, to be effective.  I don’t have to stand outside anymore making noise, I was inside and could shape change. ...  It wasn’t that I had lost my voice; I had actually gained my voice. That stayed with me.

Our job is to gather information, to understand what’s important, to be able to put it in the context of U.S. interests, and to be able to make sound, reasonable and innovative policy recommendations. If the policy doesn’t work, our job is not to stand outside protesting, but to work inside to shape that policy, using every intellectual, every persuasive, every analytic skill you’ve got to shift it.

To give another example of how that works, when I first went to work in the Middle East bureau, the U.S. government did not recognize Palestinians, a Palestinian state, a two-state solution, or anything else along those lines. There were people within the Middle East bureau who quietly shaped that policy so that over time a two-state solution, up until three years ago, was settled policy. 

What you are paid to do is to formulate as well as implement policy, and how you implement policy also shapes it. There is a feedback loop and you’re in the middle of it. The other side of it is that you will lose some policy fights. You need the humility to know that you’re not always right and the professionalism to carry out policy as decided, not as preferred.  A little bit of persistence is good. You continue to try to shape the policy as best you can. You work within the system, you work the system.  

There may come a time when it is more than a policy difference. That is something that strikes at the core of your values and principles. Where that line is is different for everyone, and not everyone comes face-to-face with it. But if you do, then you have to decide whether you can in good conscience carry out the policy. If you cannot, then you must decide whether you need to leave. I left the service when I did, in part, because I was working for somebody whose principles, approaches and basic policies, made it difficult to implement the policy as I was directed to do. I came to the conclusion that I needed to step down. It was a difficult and painful decision, I loved the Service. But it was the right thing for me at that time.

Any best practices for working with the NSC and the interagency? 

You will use far more negotiation skills, relationship-building skills and all the skills we think we just use on counterparts, you will use them far more within your own government. It’s a truism that in negotiations, you end up negotiating with your own government far more than with the other side. Some basic tips are: you need to know who the people are, develop relationships with them, know what their interests are, invest in them, and be an honest broker since your word is the most valuable thing you have. Basically, the same skills you need for those on the other side of the table you need in working with your side.

I spent most of my career working more with DOD and uniformed military than I did with any other agency. We saw each other as playing different positions on the team. We all brought different skills and resources, but we were all trying to get to the same end. I always viewed my interagency partners as equal partners. Remember where you need to go and think how that person can help get there rather than seeing that person as an obstacle is key. Whether you like them or not is irrelevant. Whether you think they are competent is also irrelevant. They are not less worthy.  In a more partisan environment, it’s helpful to find that one person in the agency you work with whom you can build a trusting relationship. A long time ago, someone I was working with had told me that “no is just a long way to yes.” It really helps you get through the day if you can remember that.

Could you please tell us more about experience working on the Diverse Diplomacy Leaders Speaker Series?  Advice and best practices you could share for how we can encourage diversity?

The Diverse Diplomacy Leaders Speakers Series is a video webcast of interviews the Institute for the Study of Diplomacy has conducted over the past two years that feature senior retired and current officers, foreign and civil service, and rising stars who talk with great candor about choosing a career at State and the obstacles and opportunities they faced as women, people of color, or LGBTQ.  What motivated them to join? The role of mentorship…etc. I encourage your members to check it out at isd.georgetown.edu.

Diversity is who we are. It is not a choice between a meritocracy and diversity. Diversity is the embodiment of a meritocracy. The antithesis of a meritocracy is a non-diverse workforce. Diversity or opportunity is not something you grant me, the opportunity is mine. I have to prove myself, I have to work. Opportunity is not a gift but is something that is my right to be able to compete for and be considered for and promoted for.  

There is still too much tolerance for antiquated thinking and antiquated behavior regarding diversity. We need to reform ourselves. It is not a question of putting women, people of color and others in senior positions to have good numbers. It’s recognizing that talent is there, and they have earned those senior positions. When I began my career, there was some talk about an affirmative action program for women in the State Department. The very few of us that were in the Service at the time did not support the idea. We didn’t need special treatment, we just needed others to get out of our way.

The Department absolutely does have the capacity to change. The problem is not so much with the recruitment, but rather it is this sense of being fully accepted as an equal officer by everybody. And finally, do not get so focused on your diversity identity, remember that you are an officer first and foremost. Remind others of that too.

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